Any Martial Artists Here
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Wajirou Ichisada
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I've been taking some form of martial arts for 30 years. Either dojo training under a recognized system, in the US Army, and with private teachers. Right now I'm taking Philipino stick fighting taught by an old Army buddy of mine and also taking mixed style karate with a private instructor- primarily it's Kenpo with a dash of Kung Fu (I guess you could call it jeet kun do or mma-ish since it's a mixed style).
Also taken weapons training, the aforementioned stick fighting and also blade work with knife and Kenpo japanese sword. Haven't played with nunchucks or other kung-fu style weapons. Also studied western martial arts such as boxing and Irish sheleighly
I guess I know enough to be dangerous to myself....
Also taken weapons training, the aforementioned stick fighting and also blade work with knife and Kenpo japanese sword. Haven't played with nunchucks or other kung-fu style weapons. Also studied western martial arts such as boxing and Irish sheleighly
I guess I know enough to be dangerous to myself....
Wajirou Ichisada
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And therein lies the problem with any martial arts training. We have limited time and limited funds, so we want to get the best value for our investment and learn something useful. But finding the right teacher is never easy. There are thousands of McDojos that will sell you a 3 year blackbelt program for $4k or so, and others that charge $50 a month but only teach you to dance around a little bit. Private teachers are extremely rare, and if they charge you money, it's a large amount, but if they don't, then they expect you to commit to a lifestyle of martial arts.
For swords, it's even more difficult. Kendo studios are easy to find, but that is the sport version of sword fighting. It's extremely fun and challenging, and it's good excercise, but it's not sharp blade, old school, Samurai type real battle fighting. Locating a teacher for that is like winning the lottery. The only thing I can say is to ask around the MA community and maybe you can get a phone number.
I've been very fortunate to have happened upon a highly skilled "open hand" instructor and also to have studied under an actual sword master. Both have passed on now, much to my annoyance as I feel there is so much more to learn.
The key in all of it is to spar. Sparring is where the kata's come to life and where you learn to get hit and not be bothered by it. It's where you learn strategy and dirty tricks....yes, in real battlefield sword/ unarmed fighting, winning is what matters- so it is perfectly permissible, and encouraged, when in sword lock up to punch your opponent in the face with your armored glove. Whatever works...
For swords, it's even more difficult. Kendo studios are easy to find, but that is the sport version of sword fighting. It's extremely fun and challenging, and it's good excercise, but it's not sharp blade, old school, Samurai type real battle fighting. Locating a teacher for that is like winning the lottery. The only thing I can say is to ask around the MA community and maybe you can get a phone number.
I've been very fortunate to have happened upon a highly skilled "open hand" instructor and also to have studied under an actual sword master. Both have passed on now, much to my annoyance as I feel there is so much more to learn.
The key in all of it is to spar. Sparring is where the kata's come to life and where you learn to get hit and not be bothered by it. It's where you learn strategy and dirty tricks....yes, in real battlefield sword/ unarmed fighting, winning is what matters- so it is perfectly permissible, and encouraged, when in sword lock up to punch your opponent in the face with your armored glove. Whatever works...
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Brothers,
I've studied various schools of karate, which led me to study weapons primarily staff, bow and sword--aikido, a continuance of weapons training with jo and some knife then onto tenshin ryu (of a variety I'm pretty sure was a mashup of various systems). All of which has led me to a solitary life of studying iaido (my kids join with their lightsabres) in the country an hour or more away from dojo that Might have a worthwhile program.
Luckily a friend is an iaido and tameshigiri instructor so his visits correct my bad form and shame my children's lack of force powers. .
If I could describe myself in a fictional character...Shimada Shinzaemon of the characters of 13 Assasins comes closest but...i have no great enemy or cause but the raising of my family (in a way i see him considering the future of Japan to be like a child that needs to be guidwd onto the right path) and putting their feet on the path. My, that strayed...
Ouro--master of hyperbolic cycles
I've studied various schools of karate, which led me to study weapons primarily staff, bow and sword--aikido, a continuance of weapons training with jo and some knife then onto tenshin ryu (of a variety I'm pretty sure was a mashup of various systems). All of which has led me to a solitary life of studying iaido (my kids join with their lightsabres) in the country an hour or more away from dojo that Might have a worthwhile program.
Luckily a friend is an iaido and tameshigiri instructor so his visits correct my bad form and shame my children's lack of force powers. .
If I could describe myself in a fictional character...Shimada Shinzaemon of the characters of 13 Assasins comes closest but...i have no great enemy or cause but the raising of my family (in a way i see him considering the future of Japan to be like a child that needs to be guidwd onto the right path) and putting their feet on the path. My, that strayed...
Ouro--master of hyperbolic cycles
Wajirou Ichisada
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The problem with learning katana is the fact that there is nobody alive today that's ever used one in a real life day to day environment that required actual fighting with a sword. So much of what we are learning is based on tradition and conjecture, or just pure sport. From my study of old writings on the topic, I have come to the conclusion that real fighting Samurai were far less concerned with tradition and form and very much concerned about killing the other guy before he got a chance to do the same to you. Sword fighting often devolved into punching and kicking as well as slashing- whatever worked. Dirty tricks were approved of and expected. It's a far cry from the clean and stylized version we think of today.
But as much with Japanese history, it really depends on the timeframe you are talking about. The above was from the warring periods when staying alive to old age was hoped for, but few made it there. Contrast to later periods when Samurai were administrators rather than warriors, and we get lots of formal styles and traditions.
The point of all that long-windedness was to clarify why it's so hard to find a good sword teacher nowadays. There are realatively few master swordsmen in America, most teachers are not actual experts on the katana but teach it along with other things as well. Then there is the issue of pure Iado, fighting style, sport styles, or whatever that will have to be decided on . It's a bad day when you really want to learn rough fighting style, but can only find an Iado teacher. I've been very fortunate to have studied for two years under a real swordmaster, but the only thing I truly learned is that two years isn't nearly enough time. While I feel that I am clearly better trained than most other casual students that I've seen, I also know that if I ever fought a real swordsman then my best option is to run away, and hope I'm faster than he is. To clarify, I said I'm "better trained" not just "better". I see lots of people who, with proper training, would easily wipe the floor with me, but they lack a proper teacher and therefore I could defeat them simply because I was taught properly.
But at the end of the day, no teacher or no style is worth anything without sparring practice, lots and lots and lots of it. Sparring is where you really learn how to sword fight. Anything else is just dancing around.
But as much with Japanese history, it really depends on the timeframe you are talking about. The above was from the warring periods when staying alive to old age was hoped for, but few made it there. Contrast to later periods when Samurai were administrators rather than warriors, and we get lots of formal styles and traditions.
The point of all that long-windedness was to clarify why it's so hard to find a good sword teacher nowadays. There are realatively few master swordsmen in America, most teachers are not actual experts on the katana but teach it along with other things as well. Then there is the issue of pure Iado, fighting style, sport styles, or whatever that will have to be decided on . It's a bad day when you really want to learn rough fighting style, but can only find an Iado teacher. I've been very fortunate to have studied for two years under a real swordmaster, but the only thing I truly learned is that two years isn't nearly enough time. While I feel that I am clearly better trained than most other casual students that I've seen, I also know that if I ever fought a real swordsman then my best option is to run away, and hope I'm faster than he is. To clarify, I said I'm "better trained" not just "better". I see lots of people who, with proper training, would easily wipe the floor with me, but they lack a proper teacher and therefore I could defeat them simply because I was taught properly.
But at the end of the day, no teacher or no style is worth anything without sparring practice, lots and lots and lots of it. Sparring is where you really learn how to sword fight. Anything else is just dancing around.
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Some schools remain unchanged since their development. Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (TSKSR for short) has remained unchanged since its original development and supposedly was the ryu Musashi himself used. Only two schools in the U.S. are certified to teach it, one of which is 40 minutes from where I live.
As for me my background is in Tae Kwon Do (age 8-17), Jujitsu (16-19), and now getting into Kenjutsu and HEMA (German longsword).
As for me my background is in Tae Kwon Do (age 8-17), Jujitsu (16-19), and now getting into Kenjutsu and HEMA (German longsword).
MrNinjato
"But did you die"...
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Nice.
My son has been taking Tang Soo Do for 4 yrs now, he should be reaching his 1st degree in December. There may be an issue because of an injury at the end of this past school year that may delay him until june but we're hoping that doesn't happen. He's also been doing Judo and Jujitsu for the last 1.5 yrs.
Treeslicer
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A long while back, I had Isshin-ryu karate, some judo, and some fencing, including Barbasetti sabre, as well as various military training. I got heavily into serious yoga for decades, and have much less seriously swung rattan in SCA. The Isshin-ryu has occasionally come in handy, and the yoga has probably helped keep me supple.
I'm frankly underwhelmed by what's available in the iaido realm in the USA, as, IMHO, it seems to be a choice between MJER (which strikes me as kneeling tai-chi with a razor blade), or going to some pseudo-Toyama McDojo and expensively wallowing in Bullshido. I consider Togo Jigen-ryu and TSKSR to be the best koryu available, but TJR hasn't really propagated much beyond Kagoshima, and TSKSR, as Verity noted, is just barely here. Of the other batto koryu, most haven't spread much beyond Japan, most are relatives of MJER, and most are doubly corrupted by post-Meiji sword law and post-Occupation changes piled atop Edo-period innovations. Toyama-ryu and Nakamura-ryu (emphatically not koryu), while both are healthily present in Japan and concerned with practical application, aren't really here either, as far as I can tell.
As everybody here (so far) is a responsible adult with some practical weapons training/experience and are already cutting with katana in their backyards, perhaps the most realistic answer for us is individual study. Has anyone else here bought and absorbed Nakamura's Spirit of the Sword, and interested in discussing it?
I'm frankly underwhelmed by what's available in the iaido realm in the USA, as, IMHO, it seems to be a choice between MJER (which strikes me as kneeling tai-chi with a razor blade), or going to some pseudo-Toyama McDojo and expensively wallowing in Bullshido. I consider Togo Jigen-ryu and TSKSR to be the best koryu available, but TJR hasn't really propagated much beyond Kagoshima, and TSKSR, as Verity noted, is just barely here. Of the other batto koryu, most haven't spread much beyond Japan, most are relatives of MJER, and most are doubly corrupted by post-Meiji sword law and post-Occupation changes piled atop Edo-period innovations. Toyama-ryu and Nakamura-ryu (emphatically not koryu), while both are healthily present in Japan and concerned with practical application, aren't really here either, as far as I can tell.
As everybody here (so far) is a responsible adult with some practical weapons training/experience and are already cutting with katana in their backyards, perhaps the most realistic answer for us is individual study. Has anyone else here bought and absorbed Nakamura's Spirit of the Sword, and interested in discussing it?
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Wajirou Ichisada
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Well, treeslicer, you have basically summed up what I was trying to say- and in a much clearer way. Yes, my point exactly is that modern schools, even the ones that are "pure" methods taught by the Japanese aren't being taught by people who used the swords on a daily basis to try to kill other people with swords who are actually trying to kill them back.
Sadly, it seems that there won't be epic sword based warfare in the near future in which we can use the handed down techniques to see if they actually will work. It's on the battlefield where life and death are the only measure of success will a fighting style prove itself.
I have studied the "Book of the 5 Rings" and while it's facinating, it's also aggravatingly silent on some technique questions that I need clarified. Too bad we can't dig up a few Samurai and do a Jurrasic Park on them....maybe we would learn that what we thought we knew was all wrong... or maybe they would be impressed by how far we have come in the last 500 years....
Sadly, it seems that there won't be epic sword based warfare in the near future in which we can use the handed down techniques to see if they actually will work. It's on the battlefield where life and death are the only measure of success will a fighting style prove itself.
I have studied the "Book of the 5 Rings" and while it's facinating, it's also aggravatingly silent on some technique questions that I need clarified. Too bad we can't dig up a few Samurai and do a Jurrasic Park on them....maybe we would learn that what we thought we knew was all wrong... or maybe they would be impressed by how far we have come in the last 500 years....
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I have tried a few times to place these words in a form I thought 'made sense' because I'm coming back to sword training after many years abstaining. Twenty years is a long time, in reflection I often wonder 'where would I be now...' and this is a source of anxiety and meditative contemplation for me sometimes on a daily basis.
Let me express first my views on any martial art: there are 3 pillars physical, psychological and spiritual.
We have succinctly nailed what I would consider the primary physical pillar: practice practice practice (under proper guidance). The other two I think we should explore together through this thread.
What I see here are a few gents who collectively have a long-tonne of knowledge couple with formidible practical experience through training. What I would like to know, if I may be so bold as to ask, what aspects (if any) of the other 2 pillars do you embrace? Are you training only for the physical? Are you practicing in an attempt to reach a state of inner peace or understanding so esoteric it's only hinted at? Does you soul sing when you feel the perfect cut? Do you connect with something...divine... when it's only you and the blade? I'm very curious...because I don't think I'm alone in seeking more than just a physical workout with a sharp'n'pointy.
At the risk of embracing or exposing my ignorance of the historical thought (though I have read 'The Book of Five Rings' and seek to understand it's wisdom through meditation) I am not well read in the philosophy of the age and culture of the katana. I know some historical facts, timelines, periods and I've read Five Rings and The Hagakure but these words do not capture what I feel...
What I feel when I am united with the blade, the bow or the staff is... calm,peace,at ease.
It's really the only time I am calm and can contemplate...nothing and just be...My 18 track recorder of a brain give it ALL up for a single focussed effort to bring about one moment of perfect beauty. The letting go of anticipation, reconnecting the psychology with the physical body, sharpening situational awareness...Romanticized? Sure...I'm not sure mushin and yugen can be expressed in words of fact without poetry but I haven't found anything else that quite does the same thing for me. I've friends who are the same way when you put a skatey-punchy stick in their hand (hockey)
My meditative focus is improved, my ability to conjur strange solution to even stranger data mining problems becomes sharper, my ability to handle stress increases, my inner peace is improved, I can deal better with my kids, my spouse and my friends. My ability to handle...what comes next...the inevitable we must all face.
These are reasons I practice with the bo, the bow and the sword.
These weapons of the Japanese martial arts bring me great comfort.
Ouro
I do hope this made sense.
Let me express first my views on any martial art: there are 3 pillars physical, psychological and spiritual.
We have succinctly nailed what I would consider the primary physical pillar: practice practice practice (under proper guidance). The other two I think we should explore together through this thread.
What I see here are a few gents who collectively have a long-tonne of knowledge couple with formidible practical experience through training. What I would like to know, if I may be so bold as to ask, what aspects (if any) of the other 2 pillars do you embrace? Are you training only for the physical? Are you practicing in an attempt to reach a state of inner peace or understanding so esoteric it's only hinted at? Does you soul sing when you feel the perfect cut? Do you connect with something...divine... when it's only you and the blade? I'm very curious...because I don't think I'm alone in seeking more than just a physical workout with a sharp'n'pointy.
At the risk of embracing or exposing my ignorance of the historical thought (though I have read 'The Book of Five Rings' and seek to understand it's wisdom through meditation) I am not well read in the philosophy of the age and culture of the katana. I know some historical facts, timelines, periods and I've read Five Rings and The Hagakure but these words do not capture what I feel...
What I feel when I am united with the blade, the bow or the staff is... calm,peace,at ease.
It's really the only time I am calm and can contemplate...nothing and just be...My 18 track recorder of a brain give it ALL up for a single focussed effort to bring about one moment of perfect beauty. The letting go of anticipation, reconnecting the psychology with the physical body, sharpening situational awareness...Romanticized? Sure...I'm not sure mushin and yugen can be expressed in words of fact without poetry but I haven't found anything else that quite does the same thing for me. I've friends who are the same way when you put a skatey-punchy stick in their hand (hockey)
My meditative focus is improved, my ability to conjur strange solution to even stranger data mining problems becomes sharper, my ability to handle stress increases, my inner peace is improved, I can deal better with my kids, my spouse and my friends. My ability to handle...what comes next...the inevitable we must all face.
These are reasons I practice with the bo, the bow and the sword.
These weapons of the Japanese martial arts bring me great comfort.
Ouro
I do hope this made sense.
MrNinjato
"But did you die"...
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Obviously I don't do any sort of sword training as of yet. I still do some Bo work, as well as keep somewhat fresh on my Shotokan against the heavy bag type nemesis. And while this is great in terms of physical training and the cardio is excellent, I train to get more from it. Just like when it comes to running and that "runners high" I have felt, I have had such intense workouts in the past that I have sort of just gone into my own world, just me, my training, and the bag. I have lost "time" in some workouts. I feel training keeps my mind as well as my body sharp, but my inner spirituality has gotten stronger due to the lowering of everyday stress through physical and psychological workouts (cleansings).
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Wajirou Ichisada
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As for me, I don't separate the physical, spiritual, and psychological (mind, body and spirit). The three are the one and the same, although different.
How to explain? It's like your left eye and right eye. Cover one, and you can see. Cover the other at the same time and although you have two eyes, you see nothing. Uncover the first eye and you can see again. Now uncover both and try to ONLY see out of one eye- and you will find that to be impossible. Your two eyes, although each is individual and each can see without the other, CANNOT see independently when both are together- they have become for all practical purposes, one entity serving one purpose.
The same I have found in my martial art journey. At the beginning, I focused on my body's physical endurance and flexibility. Then I focused on my attitude and point of view. Then I focused internaly on the meaning of the art, and the meaning of possibly using it to hurt another person. At some point, they became one and the same and although I could concentrate my training on one or the other, I couldn't NOT work on the others at the same time. Now when I train, my body reacts to the commands my mind gives it, my body's condition then feeds my spirit, and my "self" or "id" or whatever you want to name it, tones the other two aspects and I gain a small amount of growth.
As a circle, so is our training. Remove a segment of the circle and it is no longer is a circle, but becomes something lesser. A wheel without spokes is useless as is a room without doors.
I only wish I could explain in words the understanding that I feel.
How to explain? It's like your left eye and right eye. Cover one, and you can see. Cover the other at the same time and although you have two eyes, you see nothing. Uncover the first eye and you can see again. Now uncover both and try to ONLY see out of one eye- and you will find that to be impossible. Your two eyes, although each is individual and each can see without the other, CANNOT see independently when both are together- they have become for all practical purposes, one entity serving one purpose.
The same I have found in my martial art journey. At the beginning, I focused on my body's physical endurance and flexibility. Then I focused on my attitude and point of view. Then I focused internaly on the meaning of the art, and the meaning of possibly using it to hurt another person. At some point, they became one and the same and although I could concentrate my training on one or the other, I couldn't NOT work on the others at the same time. Now when I train, my body reacts to the commands my mind gives it, my body's condition then feeds my spirit, and my "self" or "id" or whatever you want to name it, tones the other two aspects and I gain a small amount of growth.
As a circle, so is our training. Remove a segment of the circle and it is no longer is a circle, but becomes something lesser. A wheel without spokes is useless as is a room without doors.
I only wish I could explain in words the understanding that I feel.
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I ordered a copy of this tome based on a recommendation from an offline buddy last week. Give me 1 week to receive it and some time to study it and I'm all for a good discussion. Perhaps we should have a Recommended Reading thread...?
Ouro
Treeslicer
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Or more likely, they'd escape from the raptor pen and we'd have a mess on our hands. Make one hell of a movie.
Nah, Musashi's easy to understand. If you're dueling, show up late and beat your opponent to death with a stick. If he brings friends, show up early instead, and ambush them. If you get into serious combat, fight "Florentine". Oh, and wear your helmet, rioting peasants throw rocks. I've actually got a katateuchi which seems to have been used as a sho in niten-ichi style, it has nasty divots on the left shinogi from parrying. I treasure that sword and call it "Katsumi". Niten-ichi was the first Japanese style I ever messed with. IMHO, the only place in Nakamura's Nihonto tameshigiri no shinzui (published in English as The Spirit of the Sword) where he's absolutely full of it is when he claims that niten-ichi was only a training technique, and that Musashi never used it in combat.
For a koryu-connected book on technique, I'd recommend the translation of the Yagyu family's Heiho Kaden Sho published in English as The Sword & The Mind (which also contains some excerpts from Takuan, along with an intro, some illustrations, commentary, and notes). It's a nice collection of realistic pointers and dirty tricks.
As far as modern battojutsu manuals based on battlefield experience, IMHO, the closest you can get is Nakamura's book. While he claims that he never actually got in combat during WW II (he did serve briefly in combat in 1933-34, and got wounded), "the lady doth protest too much, methinks". My research does suggest that nearly every one of the martial arts running buddies he quotes or refers to were hip deep in "military operations" in China, mostly in the 1930's.
Note: On my use of the word "Florentine", see the following PDF: http://www.hroarr.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2014/06/Terminiello-Piermarco-Reich-Steven-Fighting-with-two-swords-according-to-Altoni-and-Docciolini-2013.pdf
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Treeslicer
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Anyone interested in better explanations of the Zen-related "inner game" of iaido than Nakamura gives (he was addressing a Japanese audience and took a lot for granted) should buy a copy of the second edition of Flashing Steel. Shimabukuro lays it out as understandably and knowledgeably as anyone could.
I personally got my spiritual grounding/esoteric training through other means, and applied it to martial arts, not the other way around, but what Shimabukuro gives is validly useful, and not B.S. FWIW, what I learned through my esoteric studies eventually brought me back to the Church with a bang. That's all I'll say about that, y'all have been witnessed to.
As I understand it, the actual faith of the samurai prior to the very late Muromachi was Shingon (Mikkyo) Buddhism, which is heavily into magic, and not Zen at all. Also, prior to 1573, a lot of the combatants in the Sengoku were warrior monks, mostly Mikkyo. All those bonji inscriptions and other horimono originally were talismans rather than decoration. While you find some of that on tsuba, more of the original (pre-Edo) tsuba decorations seem to have been military gallows humor similar to modern "morale patches", nose art, etc., if you can interpret the symbolism.
I personally got my spiritual grounding/esoteric training through other means, and applied it to martial arts, not the other way around, but what Shimabukuro gives is validly useful, and not B.S. FWIW, what I learned through my esoteric studies eventually brought me back to the Church with a bang. That's all I'll say about that, y'all have been witnessed to.
As I understand it, the actual faith of the samurai prior to the very late Muromachi was Shingon (Mikkyo) Buddhism, which is heavily into magic, and not Zen at all. Also, prior to 1573, a lot of the combatants in the Sengoku were warrior monks, mostly Mikkyo. All those bonji inscriptions and other horimono originally were talismans rather than decoration. While you find some of that on tsuba, more of the original (pre-Edo) tsuba decorations seem to have been military gallows humor similar to modern "morale patches", nose art, etc., if you can interpret the symbolism.
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